Curse

Last Gasp · May 13, 2005, 06:14 AM // 06:14

I've got warrior and ranger, fyi, the ranger dps doesn't even come close to the warrior with the top weapons available to the ranger, while the warrior is still levels behind as a character and in gear.

Well, the ranger comes close if he can find a 100 foot cliff with mobs at the bottom that are weak to pierce. :-)

Everything you guys are saying convinces me the ranger is a niche class in a game with very few ranger-sized niches. It only backs up my personal experience.

Last Gasp · May 13, 2005, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Tiger's fury boosts dps, I didn't say it didn't, I said it isn't enough. Period. You can guess all you want about my understanding, but I can tell you right now, odds are very good my ranger has more of the ranger abilities than yours does, and has tried many builds for one that comes close to the all-around package delivered by other classes.

And no, the world isn't coming to an end, but if it is going to be a game, and going to be a fun game, wouln't it be nice if there was a bit of parity between the classes?

Please excuse me for wanting the game to be better.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Gasp

Tiger's fury boosts dps, I didn't say it didn't, I said it isn't enough. Period. You can guess all you want about my understanding, but I can tell you right now, odds are very good my ranger has more of the ranger abilities than yours does, and has tried many builds for one that comes close to the all-around package delivered by other classes.

And no, the world isn't coming to an end, but if it is going to be a game, and going to be a fun game, wouln't it be nice if there was a bit of parity between the classes?

Please excuse me for wanting the game to be better.

First, i dont play Rangers, and Blackace has been around for a long *long* time, he probbaly knows what he is talking about.

Second, the "yes the world is coming to and end" was directed at me. Me and him just recently where in a very heated argument that was closed. Hence my " I can NOT belive im agreeing with you " statement.

Zeru · May 13, 2005, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Yeah, smiting war monks can outdamage rangers even with a conjure or judges insight but that just seems right because that's all a smiting war monk is aiming for. Rangers aren't a high damage only class; debilitating and distracting shot are really great stuff and they have excellent flexibility in dealing with unexpected situations as well (whole wilderness line).

I recall Ranger damage being nerfed in one of the last few BWEs. I'm not sure why, or that it was needed really, but before that they definitely could outdamage elementalists with TF and Barrage/Dual spam even when not multitargeting and consistently come very close to that of a warrior.

I'd personally like to see Rangers getting that damage back that was recently lost, if only because so few people realize how strong they are with the proper stuff. But if they don't, oh well, it's not like they can't compete effectively with other classes.

May 13, 2005, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

I recall Ranger damage being nerfed in one of the last few BWEs. I'm not sure why, or that it was needed really, but before that they definitely could outdamage elementalists with TF and Barrage/Dual spam even when not multitargeting and consistently come very close to that of a warrior.

Yea something like that. Charles had a whole post somewhere about Rangers with TF being able to do more sustainable damage than Elementalists using one of their staple spike damage skills aka Lightning Orb. Part of it was due to Expertise and the other do to TF having no drawback and the rank 4 beast mastery giving 7 seconds of IAS.

And also as you pointed out Rangers were hands down the most damaging class in the game at the time. They pretty much had no penalties on them and had too much going for them between some crazy buffs on their skills. They still are a mixed up class at the moment imo, but they are much more balanced than before.

Vermilion Okeanos · May 13, 2005, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Since no one have mentioned them... I will drop in

One of the most important thing about ranger... expertise, no class can spam their skills like ranger due to this. Before tiger's fury was nerf, they were really quite mad... anyway, a ranger can keep on spamming their bow attacks without stopping due to this attribute. Warrior need to hit to get their adrenline, caster need to manage their energy, ranger can just spam away especially with marksman's wager... in result, Ranger DPS are very high even without elevation... however, they do indeed lack in spike damages.

edit: hmm... I guess I post a bit slow... Ranger skills got decrease by a few point last BWE, and tiger's fury also got a recharge time of 10 sec instead of 5... which only balance ranger out.

Xellos · May 13, 2005, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I've hit 145 non-elevated, non critical on a monk with wanderers set. I've always wondered what would happen if both those requirements are fulfilled.

xakia · May 13, 2005, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last Gasp

Sick of having to beg for groups as a ranger most of the time, I thought I'd try out a warrior, specifically a warrior/monk.

Going to post-searing Ascalon at the same level as my ranger, I can solo encounters my ranger couldn't even handle with a full hench group.

Maybe they nerfed bows and marksmanship just a little much, perhaps?

Come on, I buy a few pieces of armor and things can't even hit me for more than zero as the warrior. I laugh in the face of six devourers, where the ranger would've said, "RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY".

Kind of upsets me, ranger has so much utility, but gets ignored because they can't take very many hits and/or don't pump out the damage compared to other classes. In some cases, rightly so, but not in all of them.

CASE IN POINT: Underworld. You might be familiar with the shadow minotaurs in there, Axse I think they're called. Anyways, they pretty much two-hit any non-warrior class, and even crappy warriors. Low and behold, a ranger who brings along Oath Shot, Throw Dirt, and Dust Trap can keep 2 of those beasts indefinately blinded, which effectively neuters them. Do people try to get a ranger in the group to do that? NO. Do they even think about creative approaches like that? NO. They say stupid stuff like, "We'll never survive without at least 2 monks." Of course you won't, if you play with less intelligence than that shown by the average henchmen. So, meanwhile, you've got groups twiddling their thumbs trying to get two monks, and a pile of rangers who can't even get a group. Nobody is winning in that situation, people, smarten up.

This same attitude people learn during 20+ levels of PvE is being carried over into PvP. Most people won't give rangers a chance, they just want another war/monk, or another monk/*, or another ele/*, etc. It needs to be fixed, and I think arena.net is going to have to be the ones who fix it.

I think the majority of GWs should be back in a craddle and spoon fed. It's irritating. People are afraid to change skills to adapt to their environment ect. Hell, most have a problem hitting "T." Its unbelievable that I can't take a single group into UW without them wiping to EASY mobs. I just can't find the kind of team work that I could have found in say...EQ...WOW...ect. It's just not there.

You're correct on the inbalances. Rangers are too weak. As a warrior, I ignore you or kill you. There's only a few builds that fair well as a Ranger in PVP. They are extremely hard to play vs a warrior/anything for that matter. You have alot more going on. Perhaps there could be some tweaking. You're like a variety of minor dots. Rangers are best paired with a mage in pvp. Deadly combination.

avnos · May 13, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Hey last, elerra here. I have played a few classes like this (when i say like this, i mean jack of all trade classes) in many games, it does have that nasty drawback of people wanting specialists for each thing rather than the jack of all trades. Barrage is certainly helping my dps output in PvP, but still isn't enough to warrant me as many groups as my lightning ele. I really don't know how to propose "fixing" this issue though.

Rellok · May 13, 2005, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manderlock

What you said was warriors are a pitence compaired to a ranger, you are wrong in that assesment. Warriors take just as much skill to use succsesfully as do ranggers. A different type of skill, but skill none the less.

I disagree with this statement. A warrior is much easier to play than a ranger. The thing is, rangers have so much more variety, that you must be much more conscious about the skills that you use, what your role is going to be, and how well things work with your teammates.

Now, playing the game at the Elite level is going to be difficult for any class, but just playing pretty well isn't a problem.

I don't think that rangers are underpowered. I think that there are so many new people playing them that wouldn't really play anything that well, that they have recieved a bad rap. They do have such great versatility, and ways to play them that many times I don't see them played well. Every class is a part of the whole, and each has strengths and weaknesses. However, in combination with the others you can cover up their weaknesses fairly easily.

The other day I came upon a team in the arena, 4 rangers, 4 pets. New players seem to be so taken by the pets, that they don't realize what their true utility is, and how to optimize their character in any way.

The ranger is not a melee class (of course it can be helped depending on secondary). Should a ranged class be able to do battle with a melee class withouth strategising? No. How are you keeping your enemies out of melee range if you are a ranger? If you have a problem soloing, look at why, and look at what is required to be successful running solo.

Not all classes are equally as good at running solo, and Warriors really are made to look good compared to the level 3 warrior henchman. The healer henchie is pretty good, but that warrior? It takes him forever to do any damage, and he practically runs after anything on the map if it's a red dot. I have found this to be the source of why it seems to me that warriors are so good in PvE. The elementalist isn't that good either, so ele's look pretty good in comparison.

I hope my ramblings are somewhat coherent.

Matt

Dzan · May 13, 2005, 03:03 PM // 15:03

A balanced party is always better than a party of half warriors half monks which is what the online pve community would prefer.

After doing the 6 level Glint mission with a group made up of mostly of warriors and monks (me being a Necromancer) and dying 3 times in a row; I went back and brought a balanced party of henchmen and beat it easily. Most levels are easier with a balanced group, but that one especially so.

Too bad they teach you such a basic lesson in the game so late. The pve community should have been taught that one in Ascalon.

eventhorizen · May 13, 2005, 03:50 PM // 15:50

"The other day I came upon a team in the arena, 4 rangers, 4 pets. New players seem to be so taken by the pets, that they don't realize what their true utility is, and how to optimize their character in any way.

The ranger is not a melee class (of course it can be helped depending on secondary). Should a ranged class be able to do battle with a melee class withouth strategising? No. How are you keeping your enemies out of melee range if you are a ranger? If you have a problem soloing, look at why, and look at what is required to be successful running solo."

Amen

Iv not come up against a tombs lvl 20 Ranger, so I dunno what they are like at the 'end game', but iv seen some impressive rangers in the arenas when they are behind warriors, or ontop of a hill/keeping their range. Iv got a lvl 10 ranger im playing myself, ranger/monk, and its pretty good at soloing mobs, although ranger alone is not supposed to be a mass melee mob killer.

Theyre best used imo, for adding their damage onto a target, like a warrior thats fighting a warrior, for using pets to hold opponents in place while they take them out at range, or for outmanouvering where most of the fighting is taking place to take advantage of their range and avoid being sucked into a fight where their low armor would hurt them. thats not to say they are weak. Plenty rangers have taken out my necro/mesmer head to head, admittadly after iv drained my energy pool killing someone else.

If you know how to play your ranger effectivly, yet find its still lacking, then maybe you have a valid point, but so many people dont know how to use them, or use them in stupid ways, and personally iv seen rangers that are devestating.

Undertakr · May 13, 2005, 04:25 PM // 16:25

To the person who said traps don't work because the mobs don't follow the path, that's what choke points are for. Find a choke point, fill it with traps, pull mobs into the choke point, watch them die. I wouldn't use traps in a wide open area.

In PVP I was trapping the bridge, trap after trap and then just sit behind the bridge, watch all of the warriors run at me and watch them all die. Traps rock if you use the properly.

You can't compare damage to damage between a ranger and a warrior for a few reasons I can think of right off the top of my head.
1) A warrior is a primary damage dealer and a ranger is a secondary damage dealer. Rangers are support classes, not damage classes. My girlfriend plays a ranger and I play a warrior and I wouldn't go fighting without her, she's the 'quarterback' of the group. She does her share of damage, but she oversees the whole battlefield from range, throws AOEs where it's needed, pins mobs out of the fight to buy the fighters more time, etc. Support class. She's also always the last one to die.
2) No one includes the damage the pet is doing to augment the damage their bow is doing. Pets may be half a tank, but they are a constant, no energy DOT that is also a part of the rangers damage.

If a ranger is getting hit by anything, the warriors are not doing their job. Anything that attacks our ranger or monk is immediately attacked my the warriors and killed first. We break off attacks to go defend the ranger and monk. Those classes aren't designed to be beaten on.

I understand rangers frustration, especially if you are going out with stupid henchmen, but if you go out with a good group who actually plans strategies, the ranger is probably one of the classes I couldn't go to battle without. (And it was so beneficial, I changed my secondary from Necro to Ranger.)

Talizar · May 13, 2005, 04:44 PM // 16:44

People need to stop all this nerfing changing crap. This is how wow went down the toilet. People who worked on the game for 8+ hours each day and it is all they had on their mind for 3+ years know how to balance their game better then some shmuck who played for 2 weeks and now thinks he is the smartest man in the world. Leave the game as is as far as class abilities balancing. I think people who make the decisions on class balance should be banned from reading this horsecrap on the messageboards and the vocal minority. If they decide to nerf a class or add something to a class it should be from what they see or know not from all the whiners who think they should be superman. People who whine your class sucks and other one is better just play that better class, it takes like 20-40 hours of playtime to get to lvl 20, so dont BS me about time u invested. And if thats too much time for u to start over then go play tetris or pong. If u are gonna tell me how u like ranger style and dont wanna be a warrior just cause they are better? Well part of that ranger style is to not be as good as warrior or not as desirable in groups, so deal with it.

Adjust your playstyle to the game and dont try to adjust the game to your playstyle.

Mountain Man · May 13, 2005, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by xakia

I just can't find the kind of team work that I could have found in say...EQ...WOW...ect. It's just not there.

To be fair, Guild Wars has only been out for two weeks. Give it some time.

Lusence · May 13, 2005, 07:15 PM // 19:15

One minute you tell me a ranger couldnt handle devourers then the next he can take on the toughest melee in the game and keep 2 of them blinded 100% of the time. Kinda a big contridiction in there somewhere

Rangers rock, ive seen ranger/monks that seem to never ever die and still get kills, PVP and PVE. Rangers also have awsome elemental bonuses on their armor, so they can basically chastise melee with skills and tank elemetalists with armor bonuses, yah poor rangers.

Valarian of Ascalon · May 13, 2005, 07:48 PM // 19:48

I group with any player no matter what class if they play team oriented. All classes have positives to offer and all have weak spots. It is the players skill to maximize their potential and to play as a team that counts not what class you are. As for your description of blind, an elementalist could cast Ward against Melee and that would have the same effect or a mesmer with Empathy would tear the attacking melee class apart. No class is uber in this game and no class is weak. It is all about teamwork. Valarian.

isilwen · May 13, 2005, 09:55 PM // 21:55

i made a rng recently to play as rng/war combination and i find that playing rng requires more skill and planning than hack n slash war/monk combination. my rng has advantage of starting with best equipment and gear simply cos my monk is lvl 20 and at end of game too. In 11 lvls as rng i have died only once, maybe its simply cos i dont try playing it like legolas from lotr or maybe its cause i choose targets to kill and pull carefully and switch between my long bow and half moon in battles and i use cold or fire dmg on my bows.... there are different ways to play a rng right and wrong. game is still new and alot of rng out there will eventually learn how to play their class pretty good.